'Countdown with Keith Olbermann' for Thursday, March 25th, 2010
podcast missing
Guest: Rep. Harry Mitchell, Marcelas Owens, David Corn
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, GUEST HOST (voice-over): Which of these stories
will you be talking about tomorrow?
In the face of death threats and anger after the health care vote,
Republican Congressman Eric Cantor steps up to the mikes, ignores his
party's months of lies, and actually blames Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), MINORITY WHIP: By ratcheting up the
rhetoric, some will only inflame these situations to dangerous levels.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Tonight, we'll talk to Representative Harry Mitchell, a
Democrat of Arizona, a man on Sarah Palin's target list, who is now
receiving phone calls like this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: You are always going to have to look over
your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shoulder, because people in your district hate
your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: What reactions like that do to our democracy? With
Melissa Harris Lacewell.
President Obama goes to Iowa to explain the health reform law and
tells the GOP: Go for it. Take the side of the insurance companies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If they want to have
that fight, we can have it - because I don't believe that the American
people are going to put the insurance industry back in the driver's seat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: This, as the final votes are cast in the Senate and the
House.
A witness to history - 11-year-old Marcelas Owens by the president's
side for the historic signing -
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: He and I made sure to coordinate our ties. Yes, it looks
good.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Marcelas joins us to talk about the day he saw history
being written.
And a dark day for David Frum, after saying this about his fellow
Republicans -
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID FRUM, CONSERVATIVE JOURNALIST: We went the radical way looking
for Waterloo, and it looks like we arrived at Waterloo
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: His Republican think-tank has fired him.
All that and more - now on Countdown.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
FRUM: Are they going to repeal this?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'DONNELL: Good evening from New York. I'm Lawrence O'Donnell, in
for Keith Olbermann.
It is a page straight out of the Karl Rove playbook: attack your
opponent for your own weakness. As in draft dodger Dick Cheney attacks war
hero John Kerry for being soft on defense of the country.
Today, House Minority Whip Eric Cantor apparently consulted the Rove
playbook before he accused Democrats of fanning the flames of violence in
the wake of the health care reform vote. Not to be outdone, Karl Rove
himself said more or less the same thing.
New threats today against Democratic lawmakers, most notably in New
York, where FBI hazmat crews responded to a call from Anthony Weiner's
office after the congressman received a letter containing a suspicious
white powder.
Congressman Harry Mitchell of Arizona, one of the Democrats caught in
the crosshairs of Sarah Palin's target list, has received death threats and
angry phone calls over his health care vote, like this one -
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE CALLER: Hi, Mr. Mitchell. For the rest of your
life, with the vote that you cast, you are going to have to look over your
shoulder for as long as you live in this district. You are always going to
have to look over your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) shoulder, because people in your
district hate your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face. And don't you forget it.
You have just riled up people's rage. We are filled with rage and
hate today towards you. Hate like we have never, ever felt.
I love my insurance company, and to have you come in between me and my
(EXPLETIVE DELETED) doctor, I cannot tell you how much I wish a panty
bomber would come - would come in and just blow your (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
place up.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: The Republicans say that they've been targeted with
threatening phone calls, too, like this one received by Ohio Congresswoman
Jean Schmidt.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE CALLER: You and Boehner (EXPLETIVE DELETED), that
Mitch McConnell, all you racist (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Republicans, why don't
y'all change your party name to racist?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Minority Whip Cantor said that someone fired a shot into
this Richmond campaign office. The Richmond police investigation indicates
the bullet may have been randomly fired into the sky and as it fell back
down to earth at a sharp angle, the bullet hit the front window of the
building that houses Cantor's office.
As we mentioned, Congressman Cantor accused Democrats of using the
recent threats of violence for their own political gain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CANTOR: It is reckless to use these incidents as media vehicles for
political gain. That is why I have deep concerns that some, DCCC chairman
Chris Van Hollen and DNC Chairman Tim Kaine in particular, are dangerously
fanning the flames by suggesting that these incidents be used as a
political weapon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: On FOX News, Karl Rove warned Democrats that discussing
threats against them may inflame emotions, that discussing them publicly
can only inspire copycats. He then discussed the many threats against him
in great detail.
If we are to presume that Rove's theory of the case applies to him,
too, then he obviously was using his own, unverifiable death threat stories
to seek political advantage in the subject of the day.
Meanwhile, Minority Leader Boehner, in a fit of sanity, called on
dissatisfied voters to find other ways to make their voices heard, telling
them to volunteer on political campaigns or register people to vote. But
when Congressman Boehner was asked whether his invoking the term Armageddon
to describe health care reform might have helped to incite the threats, he
disavowed any responsibility and claims that Armageddon is just a word.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), MINORITY LEADER: There have been a lot of
words said in this political debate, and many political debates in this
institution over the last 220 years. But, the fact is, is that this bill,
in my view, is really going to harm our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: We are joined now by Congressman Harry Mitchell, Democrat
of Arizona, target of the Sarah Palin hit list and recipient of that
threatening voicemail message we played earlier.
Congressman, that message you received seems to encapsulate some of
the misinformation about the health care debate. For example, the caller
seems to think that you want to come between her and her F-ing doctor.
What would you like to explain to that caller that she doesn't seem to
understand about the health care bill?
REP. HARRY MITCHELL (D), ARIZONA: Well, first of all, I think it's
important to keep in mind that rhetoric like this, it's been inflamed
because of the issue of health care, really has no place in civil discourse
about an issue that has created so much - so much emotion and passion.
You know, I taught high school government for 28 years. And many
times students come to me and ask how I like where I am. And I've been
apologizing to them lately by telling them it's not the way I taught it.
This, what's going on, the lack of civility is not the American way.
And I think that we've got to get back to discussing these issues by
issues, and certainly not by the rhetoric that we've been hearing.
O'DONNELL: Congressman Mitchell, how does it make you feel getting
phone calls like that? Have you gotten phone calms like that before in
your career?
MITCHELL: Well, I have had calls similar to this. But, one of the
things that was important, when we came to this Congress, the Capitol
Police told us, when we get certain kinds of calls that may be threatening
or just irresponsible, that we should call the Capitol Police. And we've
done that and they have it all under control.
O'DONNELL: Now, it took the Republicans a while, 24 hours, to
actually denounce violence in all forms against any lawmakers. Is that a
little too slow, when you're sitting there getting these kinds of calls,
waiting for your colleagues across the aisle to speak up about this?
MITCHELL: Well, what's important is that we calm down. And that we
take a look at these issues as issues. And again, this thing has really
created a great deal of emotion and rhetoric that is not part of the way we
try to solve problems in our democracy.
O'DONNELL: Now, there was - there was some protesting in the gallery
in the House over the weekend. There were Republican members of the House
on the House floor cheering the protesters who were violating the rules
that are maintained in the gallery about the audience behavior.
Does that provide for you any sense of linkage between what - the
Republican rhetoric, the Republican behavior, officials of the party, and
this kind of reaction that you're getting on your phone lines?
MITCHELL: You know, both sides need to take a step back - both sides
because it's not serving either side any good. And we certainly are not
doing it in a way that makes the United States a different type of
government from the rest of the world. And we've got to get back to
civility.
And again, I have been part of competitive districts, in competitive
races all my life. And I think when we get back to campaigning again, the
fact that I go back every weekend, the fact that I was born and raised in
this district, the fact I taught school there, I think we'll find that
we're going to do OK in this race.
O'DONNELL: Congressman Harry Mitchell, Democrat of Arizona - thanks
for your time tonight. I know you have to rush back to House floor right
now to vote on what turns out to be the real final passage vote of the
health care reform bill. Thank you for your time tonight.
MITCHELL: Thank you, Lawrence.
O'DONNELL: For more, let's turn to Melissa Harris-Lacewell, associate
professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University,
columnist for "The Nation" and an MSNBC contributor.
Professor, after tea party protesters shouted racist slurs at African-
American members of Congress over the weekend, Andrew Breitbart claimed
that Congressional Black Caucus members were, his words, searching for
racism by walking through the tea party crowd.
What is missing in Andrew Breitbart's education that would allow him
to see that event that way?
MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: That's quite a way to
phrase that question.
Let me just say that, you know, if you are operating in a social
movement that has serious policy goals, then one of the things that you do
as a social movement is to train the members of that movement not to behave
in ways that will distract from your goals. So, think about Martin Luther
King and the movement for nonviolent direct action in the U.S. South
against segregation. Dr. King understood that people's natural reaction
was to defend themselves when attacked. So, they carefully trained the
people who went out in these massive demonstrations that no matter what
happened, no matter what kind of violence they experienced, they were to
behave in a nonviolent, but directly resisting way.
Now, the fact that these tea party members are allowing elements of
their community to be shouting racist and homophobic things to duly-elected
leaders who are walking through on their way to work is an indication that
they are not behaving like a responsible social movement. They're behaving
more like a flash mob where everybody gets together and says what they want
to say. Now, they certainly have the right to do that in a democracy, but
it does mean we don't have to take them very seriously as a social movement
if they can't even bother to train themselves and their participants to be
disciplined and focused on the policy issues that they care about.
O'DONNELL: Now, looking back on Martin Luther King's movement, he was
at a certain point in the - as the movement matured, criticized by others
who actually wanted to be much more confrontational and, in some cases,
were willing to be violent in their protests. But Martin Luther King
stayed the course that he had set out on of pure pacifist resistance to
this authority that was oppressing his people.
What are the lessons that we have from the past about how this
movement - if it is to be taken seriously, the so-called tea party
movement, let's just call it an anti-tax movement - how should they be -
what lessons should they be looking at in history in order to find an
effective way to move forward?
HARRIS-LACEWELL: Well, now, you've put me in a strange position to
making me a consultant to the tea party movement at this point.
O'DONNELL: All right. I have another question for you if you just
want to skip that one and let them figure it out themselves.
(LAUGHTER)
HARRIS-LACEWELL: No, but let me just say this - you know, as
citizens in a democracy, we should never be afraid of the expression of
ideas. Now, I think this is the really critical distinction that we need
to make about these threatening phone calls, these acts of potential
violence or of actual vandalism.
The point is never that we want to constrain ideas. It is much more
dangerous in a democracy to say that people don't have a right to speak
their mind, even if their mind is against the policies of the government.
Instead, what we have to recognize is that our founders also believe that
we have a responsibility as citizens in a democracy to engage each other in
ways that actually preserves our union, so that we can be always in dissent
and disagreement but also concerned about preserving the value that is our
country itself.
O'DONNELL: If you were to consult with, let's say, the leadership of
the House of Representatives, both Democrats and Republicans, and try to
suggest to them ways that they could put this stuff behind them and get
these kinds of crowds under control, assuming Republicans and Democrats
were willing to have this discussion in goodwill. What would you advise
them to do?
HARRIS-LACEWELL: Well, I mean, certainly a bipartisan press
conference is the first and sort of - sort of most basic level thing that
needs to happen here.
Listen, as a country, the United States, one of the things that we
have done is hold responsible all of world Islam for a very small portion
of sort of fanatic Islam in the world that is part of world terrorist
movements. And yet, we have said as a country, listen, we expect all
people of the Muslim faith to be responsible for making sure that they are
expressing their religious ideas in a way that is certain not to create
terrorist actions against other nations.
I think we need to hold ourselves accountable in precisely the same
way. This is probably just a small sliver of the individuals who are angry
with the health care reform passage on more substantive levels, but those
who have substantive disagreements have a responsibility when they are part
of a movement where these sorts of potentially exceptionally dangerous,
violent, even, you know, possibly sort of terrorist kinds of actions - we
have a responsibility to pull that and tamp that down. And that
responsibility is bipartisan, and the leaders need to begin by standing up
in front of the cameras together and saying, we may disagree, but we are
part of one nation.
O'DONNELL: And before we go, do you see any linkage between what
you've heard from Republican rhetoric - and let's for the moment leave out
Limbaugh and the commentators - but actually elected officials in
Washington, their rhetoric and some of the activities that we've seen over
the weekend and since the vote in the House?
HARRIS-LACEWELL: You know, we have sort of a tradition in the House
in particular, not so much in the Senate, of, you know, some kind of unruly
and sometimes, you know, kind of crazy behavior on the floor. And that -
that's part of the colorfulness of our democratic institutions.
But in this particular environment, it is simply irresponsible to use
language that sounds secessionist. And that is what a lot of this language
has sounded. This notion that we don't have to follow the rules set out by
the federal government, that states should just sort of go rogue in the way
that Sarah Palin did, that they should sue the federal government - this
is language that brings us back to a time that is far more, sort of, out of
concern about the capacity to preserve our union.
And yes, I do, in fact, hear in the voice of that caller who was
saying, you know, "I love my insurance company, you're coming between me
and my doctor," that is an active case of misinformation. And what I heard
there was fear - and that fear has been planted and it has been stoked and
the Republican leadership needs to take responsibility for it.
O'DONNELL: Melissa Harris-Lacewell of Princeton University - thanks
for conducting another class for us here tonight.
HARRIS-LACEWELL: Thanks, Lawrence.
O'DONNELL: Coming up: President Obama goes to Iowa and becomes
cheerleader-in-chief for the health reform law, and tells Republicans if
they want to run on the idea of repealing reform, go right ahead.
And later, David Frum said the health care debacle will be the
Republican's Waterloo, not the president's. Now, David Frum is out of a
job at this conservative think-tank.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: Coming up: As the final votes are cast tonight for the
reconciliation fix, President Obama tells the GOP to bring it on. If you
want to repeal reform and take the side of the insurance industry, he's
ready to have that fight.
That and the latest news from Capitol Hill - next on Countdown.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: First, Republicans predicted the end of freedom if health
care passed, then the end of Democrats, and then, the end of democracy if
Democrats used a reconciliation bill to fix the Senate bill. Well, today
the reconciliation fix passed the Senate with a simple majority vote.
Democrats got 56 yeas, and all Republicans voted nay, along with Democrats
Blanche Lincoln, Mark Pryor and Ben Nelson of Nebraska, who had to spoil
the original Senate bill with a special deal for his state which was
repealed by today's fix.
Democrat Michael Bennet and others on record supporting the public
option did not seek to put it in the reconciliation bill, even though
Republicans did succeed in sending it back to the House one last time for a
pro forma vote by getting the parliamentarian to strip out some language
related to student loans.
Here then in the final class of Countdown's year-long tutorial on
reconciliation is an example of the legislative changes Republicans
succeeded in making to health care reform.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KENT CONRAD (D), NORTH DAKOTA: D, by striking subparagraph E,
and E, by redesignating subparagraph F as subparagraph E.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Don't try passing reconciliation bills at home, kids.
Not surprisingly, on his road trip to explain the new law, President
Obama couldn't resist revisiting Republicans' apocalyptic predictions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: If you turn on the news, you'll see the same folks are still
shouting about there's going to be an end of the world because this bill
passed.
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: And I'm not exaggerating. Leaders of the Republican Party,
they call the passage of this bill, Armageddon - Armageddon, end of
freedom as we know it.
And so, after I signed the bill, I looked around to see if there were
-
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: - any asteroids falling or -
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: - some cracks opening up in the earth.
It turned out it was a nice day.
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: Birds were chirping, folks were strolling down the Mall.
People still have their doctors.
From this day forward, all of the cynics, all of the naysayers,
they're going to have to confront the reality of what this reform is and
what it isn't. They'll have to finally acknowledge this isn't a government
takeover of our health care system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Joining us now is MSNBC political analyst Howard Fineman,
also senior Washington correspondent and political columnist for "Newsweek"
magazine.
Howard, the bill has gone back to the House because of that little
change that Kent Conrad mentioned, along with one other.
HOWARD FINEMAN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.
O'DONNELL: And going back to the House, having the bill go back to
the House from the Senate, last weekend seemed like every House Democrat's
worst nightmare, but now, no one seems to care.
FINEMAN: Yes.
O'DONNELL: They're going to be voting possibly as we speak.
FINEMAN: Right.
O'DONNELL: What happened?
FINEMAN: Yes. They're going to vote I think within a few minutes. I
don't think they've started yet, but it could be any minute.
A few things happened. First of all, these are very small changes,
technical changes in actually the education part of the bill, not the -
not the health care part of the fix-it bill.
The other thing happened - that's happened, Lawrence, is that the
fight's over. I mean, 95 percent of the change is in the main bill that
was already voted on and signed into law by the president. People are
exhausted. They're tired. It's been a year, year and a half.
And I also think the Republicans are confused and divided. I think
all the overheated rhetoric and all the tea party stuff - you know, the
fight's gone out of them for now. They'll be back, but for now, the
fight's gone out.
O'DONNELL: And it seems that the bill-signing strategy turned out to
be brilliant. There was some thought earlier on last week that when they
passed that Senate bill in the House, that's the ugly bill. That's the
bill with the Nebraska deal in it -
FINEMAN: Right.
O'DONNELL: - and the things they don't want to talk about. Maybe
the president will just sign that in the middle of the night with no
cameras.
FINEMAN: Right.
O'DONNELL: It turned out they took that bill and made that bill the
big signing ceremony, which does seem to have made everything that's
happened afterwards just to be an epilogue.
FINEMAN: Yes. Well, I think that's right. And also, substantively,
Lawrence, 90 percent of the changes in the health care system, or 95
percent, are in that main bill. So, it turns out that was a smart thing to
do. And it has changed the atmosphere. Everything now seems like, you
know, just the asterisk at the end of the game.
O'DONNELL: Now, one of the things that was going on while
reconciliation was approaching in the Senate was senators were signing up,
they were signing pledges to support putting the public option in the
reconciliation bill, if that was something that they felt could work at
that moment. The reason they gave for not doing it was: we don't want to
change anything in the bill and have to send it back to the House.
Now, today something did change in the bill. It was going to go -
have to go back to the House, but they still didn't try to put the public
option in the reconciliation bill.
FINEMAN: No.
O'DONNELL: What happened there? Was that - was the public option
always something of a mirage in this thing and it was never going to find
its way into reconciliation?
FINEMAN: Yes. Frankly, I think so. I think Rahm Emanuel and I guess
the president decided that many months ago, Lawrence. You know, Rahm was
going around town saying, the public option - we don't have to have the
public option. That's many months ago.
In the same psychology of "it's over so let's get out of town," you
know, applies here. I talked to a top Democratic leader just a few hours
ago about this. I said, hey, isn't - might there be a public option move
here at the last minute? He said, the people who think that must be
smoking something. It's not going to happen.
Lawrence, this is a bill that reorders the health care industry. And
in certain respects, it's reform. But it's not the big, sweeping, public
option, let alone single-payer people that a lot of progressives wanted.
That was never going to happen.
This is a down-the-middle bill, a big bill, but a down-the-middle bill
that really preserves the industry. It changes the industry, but it
preserves the doctors, the hospitals, the health care insurance companies,
you know, the big pharma, they're, if anything, bigger players than they
were a week ago.
O'DONNELL: Howard Fineman of "Newsweek" and MSNBC, I'm going to let
you go back to watch the House proceedings.
FINEMAN: Either that or the NCAA basketball tournament.
O'DONNELL: There you go. Thanks for your time, Howard.
FINEMAN: OK.
O'DONNELL: Coming up, one 11-year-old boy in the front row of
history. Our special guest tonight, Marcelas Owens, on being the
president's - being at the president's right hand and what it meant to him
to be there.
And the giant presence missing in that room - today, the Senate paid
tribute to the leadership of Ted Kennedy. We'll show you that moving
moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: John Boehner calls congressional staffers punks. But
members of Congress know better. They know they are completely dependent
on their staffers. That literally nothing, absolutely nothing, would ever
get done in Congress without the staff.
Congressmen don't write the bills, the staff does. Senators don't
pass the bills without their staffs telling them how.
Today, just before the final vote on the reconciliation bill, the
Senate said thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These staffs have worked, on both sides, minority
and majority, weekend after weekend after weekend, night after night after
night. Especially my staff director Mary Nailer along with Bill Dofter,
the finance committee, John Rider, Joel freeman. My counsel Joe Gaeta.
SEN. HARRY REID (D), MAJORITY LEADER: Randy Deval, Colb Greenwald,
Kate Leon. They left their families at home. She left her baby at home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I want to sing about one person. And that one
person is sitting next to me. Her name is Liz Fowler. In many ways she
typifies, she represents all of the people who have worked so hard to make
this bill such a great accomplishment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Yes, plenty of staffers eventually walk across the street
and cash in their experience for lobbying money. But sitting on the Senate
floor today were people who have made a career of service to this country
and have steadfastly refused to walk across that street, even though
millions of dollars are waiting for them on the other side.
You know anyone who's turned down millions of dollars? I do. I know
many. And it may surprise you to learn they all work for you.
After thanking the staff, there was just one more point of order
before the vote. As Chris Dodd noted today, it has been exactly 200 days
since the death of health care reform's greatest advocate, Senator Ted
Kennedy.
This afternoon, the Senate honored Ted Kennedy's memory and his
dedication to health care reform, in particular, by observing a moment of
silence, which Countdown now brings you in its entirety.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID: I think it would be very appropriate right now to have a minute
of silence for our departed friend, one of the great senators in the
history of this country, Ted Kennedy. And I would ask the chair to direct
that minute of silence.
JOE BIDEN, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: The chair will without objection
direct the moment of silence.
Majority Leader is recognized.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: And then history marched on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: Ahead on Countdown, Republicans went after an 11-year-old
boy who dared to support health care reform. He stood his ground, and
tonight we'll meet him. Marcelas Owens.
Plus, the Republican former speech writer for George W. Bush who dared
to call the Republican Party on its botched handling of health care reform.
Guess what happened to him today?
And when Rachel joins you at the top of the hour, the Pentagon says it
is relaxing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" but don't tell that to Dan Choi. He's
been through the process and he'll give Rachel his reaction to the new
policy coming up on the "RACHEL MADDOW SHOW."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: His was the firsthand President Obama shook after signing
the biggest social reform legislation this country has seen in nearly half
a century. Surrounded by members of Congress, some of whom have been
championing the cause for decades, he had just witnessed the strokes of 22
pens make health care reform the law of the land.
History was written, and 11-year-old Marcelas Owens was part of it.
He's been sharing his mother's story since he was 7. Unemployed and
uninsured, Tiffany Owens lost her battle with pulmonary hypertension at the
age of 27. Her son fought on, speaking about health care reformat
meetings, at rallies, beginning the week after his mother died.
His work did not go unnoticed. President Obama, paying tribute to the
brave fifth grader from Seattle on Tuesday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm signing it for 11-
year-old Marcelas Owens.
Marcelas lost his mom to an illness. So in her memory, he has told
her story across America so that no other children have to go through what
his family's experienced.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Joining me now, as promised, it is my great pleasure to
present health care activist Marcelas Owens.
Marcelas, good evening. Thank you for joining us tonight.
MARCELAS OWENS, HEALTH CARE ACTIVIST: It's good to be on the show.
O'DONNELL: Now, I know you got into this, I've read, and I've heard
you talk about getting into this because of what happened to your mother.
But you got into it before President Obama did.
You got into it a few years ago. And how did you then come to the
attention eventually to the president?
OWENS: I was - wait. I was doing activist work, and -
O'DONNELL: Wasn't there - was there a meeting where you introduced
yourself to a senator, to Senator Mary, and told her what you've been
doing?
OWENS: Yes.
O'DONNELL: And that's - and she passed the word along to Washington
that there's a pretty extraordinary speaker out here that people should be
hearing from.
What was it like standing there beside the president? And I love that
you had matching ties on. Can you tell me how your ties ended up matching
that day?
OWENS: Well, I forgot my shirt and my tie, so one of Barack Obama's
workers, I think, went out and bought a shirt and tie, and I think somebody
told him what color tie Barack was wearing, and then we ended up matching.
And that -
O'DONNELL: Well, you two looked good - you two looked good together
in those ties.
You had a meeting with the president in the oval office later that
day. What happened in that meeting?
OWENS: He said that he couldn't have done it without everybody who
got involved and that I looked good in the blue tie.
O'DONNELL: You know, Marcelas, the first time I was in the oval
office, it was with President Clinton, and I was older than you were. But
I can't remember what anyone said for the first 10 minutes, because I was
so in awe of being in the oval office in the White House.
What did it feel like for you to be in there with the president?
OWENS: It was exciting to be in there with the president because
Barack Obama is one of my African-American heroes.
O'DONNELL: Now have you had any ideas in your travels - in talking
about health care as you've done over the years and then this year getting
involved in actually seeing up-close how a bill becomes a law, something
you're going to be studying in high school.
You already know about, did - have you gotten any ideas about what
you might want to do when you grow up?
OWENS: I want to be the president of the United States.
O'DONNELL: That looks like a pretty good job, doesn't it?
OWENS: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
O'DONNELL: And, Marcelas, how do you go on from that? How do you go
back to Seattle and live a normal life with your friends and with the kids
your age when you're the only kid in town who's been standing there beside
the president in his workday when the president is at work, making laws?
What's it like to be around other 11-year-old kids who don't have
experiences like that?
OWENS: I think it's pretty easy because, even though they don't know,
you can still talk to them about it and help them learn more about it. And
everybody's interested in what I've been doing.
O'DONNELL: Marcelas, you know it takes hard work to get through
school, and it takes even harder work to get to be president of the United
States. But if there's an 11-year-old in this country who I have to bet on
on getting all the way back to the White House and having that job, you're
the guy I'm going to bet on.
Marcelas, thank you.
OWENS: Thank you.
O'DONNELL: Thank you very, very much for joining us. I really
appreciate you doing this, and I know you have homework to do, so get back
to it right now.
OWENS: OK.
O'DONNELL: OK.
Still ahead on Countdown, the Republican who showed Republicans where
they went wrong on health care reform. Now one of his patrons is showing
him the door.
What happened to the former Bush speech writer who dared to say that
Republicans are now working for Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh?
Up ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: Ahead on Countdown, with the House about to vote final
passage of health care reform, David Frum wrote the speeches President
George W. Bush used to prepare a nation for war in Iraq, but now David Frum
has gone and told the truth about his party and health care.
Republicans could have scored victories on this very middle-of-the-
road reform, but they blew it because Rush Limbaugh and FOX News are
calling the shots. So guess what happened to David Frum today?
That's next on Countdown.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'DONNELL: The House of Representatives now voting on what turns out
to be the real final passage of the reconciliation bill in the House, about
five minutes remaining in the vote.
We will, in the meantime, discuss what happens when a prominent
Republican tries to tell the truth about his own party's failings.
Former Bush speech writer David Frum has been sharply criticizing the
Republican Party lately. He said that the passage of the health care
reform bill turned out to be the GOP's waterloo. He said we're discovering
we work for FOX News.
He said that Rush Limbaugh wants the Republican Party to fail and lo
and behold, David Frum today announced his abrupt termination from the
American Enterprise Institute.
Frum has been a resident fellow at AEI since 2003, but today Frum
posted his final letter to AEI president Arthur Brooks, following Frum's
lunch meeting with Mr. Brooks.
The letter reads, in part, "Effective immediately my position as a
resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute is terminated. I do
regret this abrupt and unexpected conclusion of our relationship."
And what might be different about this week after Frum's seven-year
relationship at AEI? Frum wrote an opinion piece for CNN in which he
concluded that the waterloo for President Obama predicted by GOP senator
Jim DeMint had indeed arrived for the Republican Party.
And Frum repeated that charge on this network.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID FRUM, SPEECHWRITER FOR PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH: In this debate
Republicans have listened to the most radical voices in the party. No
compromise, hand the president his waterloo.
If this turns out to be our waterloo today, then there has to be an
accountability moment for that. Say, this is going to be a much worse
outcome than we could have got if we had negotiated early.
That was shouted down, we went the radical way, looking for waterloo,
and it looks like we arrived at waterloo.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And listen to what Frum said to ABC's Terry Moran,
particularly the first part.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRUM: Republicans originally thought that FOX worked for us, and now
we're discovering we work for FOX. And that - the balance here has been
completely reversed and the thing that's - the thing that sustains a
strong FOX network is the thing that undermines a strong Republican Party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'DONNELL: Let's bring in the Washington, D.C. bureau chief for
"Mother Jones" magazine and columnist for Politicsdaily.com, David Corn.
Good evening, David. The House vote is going on beside us. Two
minutes, 49 seconds left there at 2:03, as we approach final passage on the
health care reconciliation package.
David, can you believe that we have heard someone of David Frum's
stature saying out loud, in public, Republicans originally thought that FOX
worked for us?
DAVID CORN, MOTHER JONES MAGAZINE: Well, you know, I have a news
flash for David, who I like, and that is Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's
father.
(LAUGHTER)
CORN: I mean, for a long time, you know, you, I, others have been
saying which tail is wagging the dog here? It was - you know, FOX is
wagging the Republican Party, and time and time again, you know, the -
whether it's Glenn Beck or anybody else or - and giving the tea party
folks basically the only platform on the right, they've boxed the
Republican leadership into a corner.
Not even the leaders, everybody in the Republican Party in Congress.
If you don't cater to this audience, you get pummeled. And as David Frum,
you know, very astutely noted, that has left no room for maneuvering for
the Republican legislators.
And as you know, having worked on the Hill, if you're going to be a
legislator, you need some room. You can't just be at one corner of a big
banquet room and stand there and get anything done.
And they've just - and FOX and Rush Limbaugh and all these people who
have their own agendas - their agenda is not what's best for the country,
it's getting eyeballs and listeners and making money, but they really have
tied the hands of the Republican Party, and the Republican Party leaders
have allowed their hands to be tied.
O'DONNELL: David, you know Washington, you know the support system
that exists for people there on each side of the aisle. What happens to
David Frum in Washington? We see him losing one position today. Where
does he have to turn to for a future?
CORN: Well, he has - he's written books in the past, I'm sure he'll
write books again. He may - he has plenty of friends around town. But
Bruce Bartlett who worked for another conservative think tank a few years
ago was fired in 2005 for writing a book that was, you know, partly
critical of George W. Bush and his presidency.
And he put up a blog today saying, you know what? There isn't a lot
of room in this town these days for people like David and me.
O'DONNELL: Now, in pure political terms, should Democrats look at
this today and think, great. They are - the Republicans are just killing
the people who might - might be able to guide them toward smarter
strategies.
CORN: Well, I'm not sure that David was in that type of leadership
position -
(CROSSTALK)
O'DONNELL: Well, by his thinking.
CORN: I take your point.
O'DONNELL: Yes.
CORN: I take your point. I mean what the Republican Party needs,
what any, I think, strong minority party - any minority party that wants
to become strong needs is the ability to have a good internal debate.
Doesn't mean being wishy-washy. And eventually you have to make decisions
and plot a course that's obvious to voters.
But you need to be able to at least have a debate and have that
maneuvering room so that there's some flexibility. And that just seems to
be totally gone when you have, you know, John Boehner saying this is - and
others saying this is Armageddon, the health care bill, then what do you
do?
You have no choice but to, you know, get rid of it. But if the
American public doesn't want - you know if they don't want you to get rid
of it, they don't believe it's Armageddon, you're kind of in a pickle. So
I think, you know, it's all about being able to have a good debate which
will make you stronger.
O'DONNELL: David, the clock in the House vote has technically ticked
down to zero. There are still some votes, as sometimes happens, that
haven't taken their position on the board just yet.
We are seeing the final passage of the health care reform bill,
something that many people thought certainly two months ago was absolutely
impossible.
What does this mean for the Democrats going forward? Does this mean
they're exhausted? That's it? They've cast their final vote? Or do they
wake up tomorrow morning thinking, wow, look how strong we are?
CORN: Well, actually I think a bit of both. I wrote a piece a day or
two back saying that Washington is suffering post health care fatigue
syndrome. And it's an election year and, you know, it's hard to do a lot
of heavy lifting in an election year.
But I think overall they have to feel pretty muscular about this,
particularly about the reaction that's come - as far as we can tell, from
the polls.
O'DONNELL: They've just hit the 216 number on the floor, David.
CORN: It's a big accomplishment. And not just in political terms. I
was talking to Nancy Pelosi the other day with a few other columnists. I
mean, she feels like she's done something.
This is a lifetime achievement for Democrats who wanted a change and
deal with the troubles in our health care system. It's historic. They
know, you know, Congress has done this. No other president has done this.
So I think they have a lot to be proud of.
What this means going forward, though, will be open to debate, as you
know, things can shift rather quickly.
O'DONNELL: David, history will show that the health care reform bill,
the final passage of the final vote occurred during the final minute of
tonight's Countdown.
David Corn of "Mother Jones", thank you for witnessing it with me.
CORN: Happy to share that with you, Lawrence.
O'DONNELL: And that will do it for this historic Thursday, final
passage edition of Countdown. I'm Lawrence O'Donnell in for Keith
Olbermann. Our MSNBC coverage continues now with the "Rachel Maddow Show."
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED. END